Fate and It's Environs

[FourthAxis]

Let's start simply, everyone has thoughts and those thoughts drive that person's actions. Everyone's actions affect everyone else, which in turn begins another set of actions and reactions. Essentially cause and effect, all actions being based on a thought gained by a different action, from a personal and interpersonal manner. The constant flux of these emotions, thoughts, and reactions cannot be physically charted easily. At least not in any short span of time, a project like that would take generations of study, and recording before any results could be made. A "God" would have no trouble seeing the connections and patterns however, this God would not possess the ego needed to hold a personal view, but rather would have created ego as a way to keep the timeline flowing, ego keeps our perspectives personal and our 'free will' makes us learn from the past to make better decisions in the future. To a god, these are nothing but guiders to hold us to a path. If a person knew everything about a group of people in isolation, they could successfully chart their way through time, but no one could hold that much knowledge except a creator. Even prophets simply see the image of what transpires and not every thought everyone was thinking to lead up to that reaction. That doesn't mean that it isn't there, just that it's unfathomable.

Going back to the idea of Fate itself, if all thoughts and actions are reactions to another's thoughts and actions, and all these actions and reactions are rippling through the physical and meta, and it's all known by a force who created us, then everything that happens was meant to happen. Good and Evil become nothing but catalysts for change and that change affects everyone's views, ideas, and feelings. In the grand scheme of things, Good and Evil no longer exists, there is nothing but change and that is the only thing that matters, we are not yet perfect, so change happens to keep us thinking and progressing, to keep our ego's full and our free will willing, it keeps us moving forward towards... what? A theory from John A. Gowan says that the universe is simply becoming self-aware. Perhaps our thinking continues to ascend higher and higher until we, as a whole, are god, and our planet's physical and metaphysical are one entity. If change has to happen for that goal to become a reality, and change involves positive and negative, then all evil is as justifiable as all good. All of it works towards a common goal, even if our 'free will' and ego keeps us from seeing it.

So really, fate is going to happen whether we believe it will or not, no matter what thought is made or action carried out. It all has a place in the sphere of time and space, and it all leads to progress. So keep thinking whatever you think and doing whatever you do. Everything is justified and everything is meant to be. The irony of that situation is that even by discovering the future, or understanding it, you still have to play in its field. Fate is as undeniable as time, you cannot escape it. Even if you try, you were fated to try and escape fate.

[Crapologist]

Interesting thoughts. But there is no such thing as "fate" in my opinion. There are only probable outcomes based on the choices made from our free will. We live in a universe that has scripted realities or dimensions based on the choices that we make. Every choice that we make has an effect, and those effects are definitely real. You live in the universe that you have created based on choice. It may just be possible to visit your own self in another dimension where your choices may not have been the ones that you currently have. Each of these dimensions is like a computer program that has simulated outcomes based on every conceivable choice that we could make. In that sense, it appears that the "fate" is cast. It is not. It has simply been accounted for.

As an example, in the Bible, there is the given the story of Ninevah. The prophet tells the people that city will be destroyed, and that they should prepare themselves for this destruction because their wickedness has caused this destruction. The prophet has been sent by God to announce this destruction. The prophet gets very angry at God because the people took to heart what was said and turned from their wicked ways. The city was therefore not destroyed. The fact of the matter is, the city was destroyed in some sort of dimension. The prophet could "see" this dimension and the effects that it would have on the city. There was probably a 95% chance that the people would not repent, and the city would be destroyed making that dimension their reality. The people repented, so that 5% chance where the city was not destroyed became a reality, and the people instead lived in that dimensional reality.

All decisions and choices made, along with their affects have been accounted for in some sort of computerized reality. That means that no outcome is certain. There are many possible outcomes. It is true however, that your choices will create a "fated" reality, even though that reality may be one of 10,000 realities that could exist. We always have choices, and choices do result in some sort of "fate". Therefore, we DO have FREE WILL. It is wrong to state that that free will does not exist, and we are simply living according to some predestined reality.

[FourthAxis]

Perhaps it is hasty to say that free will doesn't exist, everything that happens does so based in choices and feelings obtained in the past. We make choices based on our free will, zoom out to a god's perspective and it all becomes clear. Ask yourself what free will is for, and ask why. I do believe that all our actions are predestined, how else would we have prophets? Or are they just skilled at seeing probability? How can we have a greater purpose if it's not destined, not individually but as whole. We would always get in each other's way, we would stagnate. A world without fate, would be a world without God who gave us this free will as a sense of purpose. It already knows what will happen, but to us, it's as if we actively make the choice. The creator already knew, can you think of better way to get change moving than the idea of choice, I can't. It might be 'real' to you or me, but to god, it's merely a tool of progress. He already knew, the bible is full of predictions, how could they be true if there is no fate? It tells us that we have free will, this is true on a personal sense, but not in a birds eye perspective. It's an important distinction between potential (choice) and action (fate). in a personal perspective free will determines the 'choice' we make, In a gods perspective that choice is action, that action is part of fate.

Really it's free will that determines the choice, after its determined, it happens. Without 'free will' Fate could not exist, ironically. If it didn't, we'd be perfect. Perhaps the knowledge of good and evil set us back. Perhaps once upon a time there was no good and evil and we lived in harmony with all things. We are relearning that now, I think. Thanks for the food for thought and the perspective. Free will is very real to you and I, just as fate is real to god.

[FourthAxis]

I dont know much about alternate realities and perhaps im missing something in that regard. But don't you think that the potential universes would be innumerable? Take every action and thought ever had and give it a separate reality, now do this for everything in existence. That is blinding, all the energy and all the power invested in these realities would have to come from somewhere. Isour source just one of many? Do they converge? Or do we split the source among all realites? If we cannot access these realities, do they truly exist? Do we exist to them? Time travel would have to be possible for such a thing to be proven. I know that our reality is real, and my small mind can barely take hold of that one.

[Crapologist]

I think that again, yes, we do have free will. The choices that we decide to make have specific consequences, and a prophet is able to determine just what those consequences will or can be based on the choices made. Prophets come when they see that choices being made by the majority will have a certain effect, and that present conditions dictate that humanity is most probably going to make the choice that they can see, and it is the wrong one. Again, if you study the story of Ninevah in the BIble, you have verification of this. The prophet saw the consequences for the present choices of the people, and they did not appear to be in anyway ready to change their evil way of thinking. The people surprised the prophet and decided to change their ways. The prophet became a "false prophet" in this case, since what he said would happen did not. This is why the prophet was angry with God, even though the outcome was very good!

Any yes, I do believe that all choices are played out in some reality in our universe. The universe is limitless, and those realities play out to their conclusion in limitless dimensions. A very adept computerized system can handle those quite easily. Even our own computer games do this. The game changes depending on the choices that we make, and this is what makes present gaming so exciting. Outcomes are not certain because of choices made that will effect them.

[Redbeck]

FourthAxis welcome by the way, I don’t believe we’ve had the pleasure before but are exceedingly grateful for your contributions.
Ah yes the eternal fate-existence-debate.

There are literally countless numbers of unusual occasions, personal events, serendipitous collisions of good fortune, devastating reversals of the former, genuinely bad luck even horror stories, unforeseen social and family reunions, plus all manner of other situations that we as humanity consistently attribute to fate as matter of habit. Indeed one could almost say it is an atavistic thought process, my father for example used to say, “It’s all written in the stars”. We are utterly conditioned to believe in fate and it is a hard attitude to shake off, no matter how freely we think we think!

We are also still governed by superstition and augurs despite walking the line, shoulders rubbing between modern editions of religion and advancing science. I have met many closet fate believers who outwardly declare that “life is what you make of it and outcomes are completely self-controlled”. Personally I’m at a halfway house, as in it’s down to the unified thoughts of this great 973-eht-namuh-973 community and communities like us to change the world for the greater good and if we all apply ourselves long enough and hard enough we’ll make it happen, but then the fate-factor kicks in as “but we do need good luck as well as God on our side”.

Free will, important but often fettered by circumstances and the rules we live by even those that are self imposed.
Decisively positive constructive thought is also hampered by ego, as in we should never think of ourselves as great or crave celebrity, even though we do great things, but we should take pride in any change for the better and cite it to demonstrate the possibility to others. Above all, free will requires energy, the energy to not take what we are told at face value and always question if we are uncertain, for this instinct I believe in, the accrual, application and focus of that energy is all important.

Arriving at the ultimately best solution for the management of this grand old planet and a better life for its citizens, demands boundless energy and some element of psychiatry it’s true. However, while we can easily let theories whirl about our heads, it is sheer force of learning that is changing us from within and pointing us towards the actions we really need to take, however small, in the interests of grass roots change.

[FourthAxis]

I live in a world that is increasingly hard to comprehend, not due to any physical parameters, in which my life is actually quite normal, more due to the constant flux of thought processes and perspectives. I live constantly back and forth with my subconscious, through dreaming and subconscious writing I have discovered much I already knew, but never believed in, about myself and the world around me. It is in these answers that I have come to believe in the strongest of truths, faith. I don't mean in any religious sort of way, or perhaps I do, it's all connected. High to low, there is a strength in all ways and all ways are true. I enjoy the moral high ground as much as anyone. But it is only half of the story

I'll admit that perhaps saying free will doesn't exist is short sighted. I see the situation more as a coexistence between fate and our free will. We would have to have a free will, otherwise we would know what to do at all times, we would live completely with God. I see fate as it is, God's plan, and attempt to live in it by trusting myself to know what to do. It is something that I believed in already, but never truly grasped the truth of it.

I've seen evil with as much power as I've seen good. I've seen ego driven people preform many feats of those who are enlightened. Most of these people are almost completely selfish and arrogant. The opposite of what is happening here, which is to say a more positive vibration of change. It led me to believe that all vibrations are important, if they were not than they would not exist. Right now good or evil is not what's important to the big picture, it is change. We might always see a struggle between good and evil, Lord knows it's an ancient battle raging as long as we have had ideas to fight over. I see one constant, that the reactions of good and evil spark change. That change is the only constant. Our minds are constantly moving forward, we as a species are always learning and recording. Now in the age of information we have more access to records and knowledge than ever before, at least I think so. That change is fate, it is us moving ever forward to the progress of thought. It is why we are so inquisitive.

The hand guiding me, which is perhaps the zed aliz zed of my personal mind or perhaps the far yonder scribe, more and more I believe that they are one and the same, either way it had said to me, "we are taught to believe that there is one way out of many, that there is one true answer, but now you are beginning to see that all answers are correct"

To me at that time it was the most powerful confirmation that I needed. All things are correct. All things are meant to be, do what you want. We live and exist to bring the physical into the meta, to achieve balance between ego and God. Symmetry among other things.

The ego is not inherently evil, it's just the basic, the beginning. God wants to find us as much as we want to find him. I think we are to become one with God as a whole species. I don't mean God in any dogma or religion by the way, I mean the concept it represents.

[FourthAxis]

Sorry, redbeck. That was not a true response to what you wrote.I don't think the notion of fate is one to be shaken off really, more as something to balance with. We all have a part to play, and we all play it, whether we think so or not. In a way, our perspective is God's perspective. We all carry a message given to us from him, in our very being. God is pure energy, living with us and about us. We are it just as much as it is us. The fate of humanity is known by such a creative force, that measures things in energies. We measure things in thoughts, each and every one of us a separate but whole value. Just as God is the energy of the meta, we are the energy of the physical. We reside in the physical and explore the meta, just as god resides in the meta and explores the physical. We explore heaven through God, and he explores the world through us. We are his image, his hand, and he is our light. Remember to me, God is a source and a creative being, to prevent any confusions on the definition of the word in different perspectives.

I really believe we are all part of the same answer, all evil and all good. Ego to enlightenment. What's on this side is just as important as what's on the next. The important part is bringing them all together. That will bring about the next age.